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‎minutes/2018-08-06.irc.log

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2018-08-06 11:04:23 ~japaric ok, let's start this meeting
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2018-08-06 11:04:33 ~japaric again, the agenda is in https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/embedded-wg
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2018-08-06 11:05:06 ~japaric the first item on the agenda was proposed by thejpster a few weeks back but he won't be attending today so let's skip it
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2018-08-06 11:05:07 prof Helloo!
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2018-08-06 11:05:15 ~japaric prof: o/
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2018-08-06 11:05:26 ~japaric prof: agenda - https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/embedded-wg
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2018-08-06 11:05:48 cr1901 Well since I'm around, I might as well listen :P
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2018-08-06 11:05:49 ~japaric the second item on the agenda was written in the etherpad last week: "Managing operator status on #rust-embedded (currently it's just @japaric)"
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2018-08-06 11:05:57 ~japaric but I'm not sure who wrote it
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2018-08-06 11:06:29 ~japaric in any case we can discuss it
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2018-08-06 11:06:51 lkurusa i'm in favor of giving OP to leads
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2018-08-06 11:06:57 korken89 I have no strong opinions here
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2018-08-06 11:07:34 ~japaric lkurusa: there will be just the lead (me) and teams after RFC 136
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2018-08-06 11:08:27 ~japaric active, trusted org members should become IRC operators
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2018-08-06 11:08:43 ~japaric I think it may be best to open an issue, cc all the members and see who's interested
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2018-08-06 11:08:46 korken89 What is the current issue with managing the IRC?
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2018-08-06 11:09:03 korken89 japaric: I agree
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2018-08-06 11:09:18 lkurusa +1
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2018-08-06 11:09:19 ~japaric korken89: not sure, I haven't been too active but I have seen spam bots
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2018-08-06 11:09:38 cr1901 This channel is often low-traffic IME
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2018-08-06 11:09:44 ~japaric not that there's much to be done about those because they post and immediately leave
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2018-08-06 11:10:10 korken89 Ah okey
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2018-08-06 11:10:18 ~japaric ok, let's make an issue then and discuss this on GH first
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2018-08-06 11:10:31 korken89 japaric: +1
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2018-08-06 11:10:43 ~japaric ok, next item is reviewing the open RFCs
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2018-08-06 11:10:54 ~japaric first one is the one about teams https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/pull/136
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2018-08-06 11:11:28 ~japaric no concerns raised but there was a question about whether there should be an ops team
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2018-08-06 11:11:52 prof What would be the job of the ops team?
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2018-08-06 11:12:14 ~japaric prof: manage infra re forums, blog, hosting and the like
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2018-08-06 11:12:17 korken89 prof: "Are we going to have a separate team for infrastructure / ops (looking after domains/DNS/websites/blogs/etc.) or would that fall within the resources team?"
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2018-08-06 11:12:41 ~japaric but we don't have much infra atm; other than some DNS records
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2018-08-06 11:12:58 korken89 It is easy for stuff like this to fall between the cracks when everything gets larger
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2018-08-06 11:13:09 ~japaric I think we can revisit this after we address the communication plan RFC
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2018-08-06 11:13:32 korken89 japaric: Agreed
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2018-08-06 11:13:57 prof I think we can probably leave the few infrastructure resources to the resources team.
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2018-08-06 11:14:37 ~japaric ok, let's re-evaluate the ops team later
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2018-08-06 11:14:56 prof (y)
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2018-08-06 11:15:06 ~japaric if there are no other concerns about the teams RFC we can approve it today
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2018-08-06 11:15:28 cr1901 What about AVR? Just curious
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2018-08-06 11:15:37 ~japaric we discussed that rfc extensively last week
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2018-08-06 11:15:47 cr1901 ahh, nevermind
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2018-08-06 11:15:48 ~japaric cr1901: not yet in tree
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2018-08-06 11:16:19 cr1901 oh I see...
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2018-08-06 11:16:36 korken89 It seems that all teams have atleast a core amount of members
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2018-08-06 11:16:41 ~japaric cr1901: and there's an avr-rust org so it's not precisely short staffed like the Cortex-M crates
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2018-08-06 11:17:20 ~japaric let's approve the teams RFC then
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2018-08-06 11:17:23 korken89 I was wondering though, should be put an approximate amount of time we can spend maintaining within the team?
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2018-08-06 11:17:32 cr1901 Fair enough. AVR team seems to do their own thing anyway...
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2018-08-06 11:17:36 ~japaric we also have RFC to create the initial teams
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2018-08-06 11:18:13 ~japaric korken89: you mean the members should report how much time they can invest maintaining or that we should request some weekly amount of time from them?
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2018-08-06 11:18:27 korken89 For those who want to
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2018-08-06 11:18:40 korken89 A detail, but I generally put out fixed time slots during the week for this work so people know when to expect answers
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2018-08-06 11:18:51 ~japaric let's discuss about the RFCs about each team; any concern with the team / crate selection?
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2018-08-06 11:19:07 prof Not from me.
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2018-08-06 11:19:21 korken89 Looks good for me
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2018-08-06 11:19:21 cr1901 pftbest understands that my involvement right now is basically limited to "make sure code compiles"
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2018-08-06 11:19:36 ~japaric korken89: you mean write down something like office hours?
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2018-08-06 11:19:47 korken89 japaric: exactly
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2018-08-06 11:20:17 ~japaric it sounds fine to me to include that in the README, if the members wants
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2018-08-06 11:20:36 ~japaric korken89: ^
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2018-08-06 11:20:49 korken89 japaric: thanks, we will fix within the team later :)
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2018-08-06 11:20:49 prof :-D
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2018-08-06 11:21:19 prof That'll be tricky, some of us are between timezones a lot.
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2018-08-06 11:21:28 ~japaric the teams I have listed in the etherpad are the one whose members have approved
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2018-08-06 11:21:52 ~japaric we are still waiting for the embedded Linux team to answer / approve
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2018-08-06 11:22:15 ~japaric but we can go ahead and create the other teams now
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2018-08-06 11:22:19 jamesmunns (just got here, re-reading history)
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2018-08-06 11:22:24 ~japaric jamesmunns: o/
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2018-08-06 11:22:32 korken89 jamesmunns: welcome
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2018-08-06 11:23:07 ~japaric as there are no concerns I'll go head and form the 6 teams listed in the etherpad
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2018-08-06 11:23:21 ~japaric and start transfering the repos to the org
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2018-08-06 11:24:41 ~japaric ok, I wrote the next item on the agenda about having a new meeting time
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2018-08-06 11:24:43 jamesmunns :+1:
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2018-08-06 11:24:46 korken89 japaric: nice!
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2018-08-06 11:24:59 ~japaric I think it would be good to re-evaluate the meeting time now that we have more people involved
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2018-08-06 11:25:25 jamesmunns Is the plan still to have one meeting? Or are the teams expected to meet on their own, and someone from that team comes to the "big" meeting?
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2018-08-06 11:25:50 ~japaric I will create a GH issue with a doodle link and cc all the org members; we can discuss the specific meeting time next week
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2018-08-06 11:26:30 ~japaric jamesmunns: I think we may want two weekly meetings with compulsory attendance of some teams to one of the meetings
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2018-08-06 11:26:46 korken89 Sounds good
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2018-08-06 11:26:51 jamesmunns I'm also cool with dropping the hangouts meetings in general. We haven't had one in a while
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2018-08-06 11:26:52 ~japaric e.g. Monday: Cortex-M, resources and tools
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2018-08-06 11:27:48 ~japaric jamesmunns: agree; it's hard to get any video solution working for many people
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2018-08-06 11:28:41 korken89 If there is a meeting that requires hangouts, one specific can be made for that
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2018-08-06 11:28:55 ~japaric ok, I'll put up the doodle and we can discuss details next week
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2018-08-06 11:29:01 ~japaric korken89: agree
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2018-08-06 11:29:58 ~japaric ok, the next item on the agenda is the RFC for a communication plan
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2018-08-06 11:30:06 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/embedded-wg/issues/148
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2018-08-06 11:30:12 ~japaric jamesmunns: could you lead the discussion?
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2018-08-06 11:30:20 jamesmunns Sure
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2018-08-06 11:30:36 jamesmunns We've had a couple methods for communication discussed in the past
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2018-08-06 11:30:47 jamesmunns I tried to collect most of the ideas into a single RFC for discussion
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2018-08-06 11:31:23 jamesmunns Issue 148 lists the "what", e.g. what components we could have, like a forum, blog, etc. as well as the "how", or the tooling we would use for that
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2018-08-06 11:32:04 jamesmunns I'd love to get feedback on what people think of what I've enumerated, e.g. :+1: or :-1:, or if there are any other things we could be doing
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2018-08-06 11:32:16 prof I was wondering what kind of content you'd be seeing for the blog?
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2018-08-06 11:32:29 prof Is it open to anyone or only team members?
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2018-08-06 11:32:32 jamesmunns At the very least, it could be a home for our newsletters every 2 weeks
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2018-08-06 11:32:46 prof Any specific topics?
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2018-08-06 11:32:48 jamesmunns I would say anyone could make a PR to share something to that repo
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2018-08-06 11:33:11 jamesmunns Generally anything related to embedded rust IMO
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2018-08-06 11:33:19 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1 on having a forum; +1 on using discourse because of familiarity and because it *might* be possible to get free hosting in the future -- I know discourse gives free hosting to open source projects; Rust has free hosting iirc
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2018-08-06 11:33:38 jamesmunns Ah, that would change some of my recommendations :)
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2018-08-06 11:33:51 cr1901 Who would run the blog?
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2018-08-06 11:34:05 jamesmunns cr1901: resources team, I would suppose
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2018-08-06 11:34:07 ~japaric prof: jamesmunns we'll very likely make announcements for RC1 and RC2 on the blog
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2018-08-06 11:34:38 ~japaric stuff like the announcement about "embedded library development possible on beta" from a while back
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2018-08-06 11:34:47 jamesmunns Right now our most effective "hey everyone read this" is japaric's twitter, followed by the rustembedded twitter, for things like japaric just mentioned
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2018-08-06 11:34:59 prof What would be the relationship to the various personal blogs? Would we encourage people to use the official blog instead to get some content?
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2018-08-06 11:35:21 lkurusa we could host a planet, too, maybe?
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2018-08-06 11:35:25 jamesmunns I'm happy with guest posts, as long as they are not commercially plugging anything
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2018-08-06 11:35:30 jamesmunns lkurusa: "planet"?
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2018-08-06 11:35:47 lkurusa a platform where content is syndicated from people's blogs
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2018-08-06 11:35:48 prof I
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2018-08-06 11:35:58 lkurusa see for instance, https://fedoraplanet.org/
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2018-08-06 11:36:09 jamesmunns bad SSL cert :|
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2018-08-06 11:36:13 ~japaric jamesmunns: a collections of blogs like https://planet.mozilla.org/
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2018-08-06 11:36:43 prof I'd be +1 for the blog if we can get the content stream going, -1 if we just have one post every 2 week. ;)
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2018-08-06 11:36:43 ~japaric all blog posts appear there I think
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2018-08-06 11:36:43 jamesmunns Cool, I will check that out. I had not heard of that before
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2018-08-06 11:37:15 jamesmunns Planet would be good, though we would still need a blog for our newsletters to include it in the stream :)
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2018-08-06 11:37:39 jamesmunns So it would be blog + planet. But that would probably scale better once we have multiple blogs
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2018-08-06 11:37:45 ~japaric re: post every 2 weeks. We should consider changing the newsletter cadence to weekly now that there will be more teams that can mentor "help wanted" stuff
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2018-08-06 11:38:02 korken89 I think a blog is also a good way to invite a writer, if we stumble over a good project or similar
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2018-08-06 11:38:12 jamesmunns japaric: :+1:, but I will need to find at least one more pair of hands to help out with it :D
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2018-08-06 11:38:33 ~japaric jamesmunns: :-). Sorry, my hands are full already.
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2018-08-06 11:39:03 jamesmunns Haha, definitely. I'll follow up with the resources team
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2018-08-06 11:39:08 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
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2018-08-06 11:39:30 prof :-D
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2018-08-06 11:40:15 prof I'm +1 for book and forum, -1 for Wiki.
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2018-08-06 11:40:18 ~japaric korken89: I think good guest posts would be something like "we are using pattern $X in our project $Y; here's how it works"
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2018-08-06 11:40:34 jamesmunns prof: any reason why?
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2018-08-06 11:41:13 korken89 japaric: Exactly
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2018-08-06 11:41:21 jamesmunns I was hoping for something like the archwiki, where a lot of the FAQ style content could be captured
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2018-08-06 11:41:25 prof Yeah, too many sources of information.
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2018-08-06 11:42:00 prof People can contribute to the books, too.
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2018-08-06 11:42:05 lkurusa i think the wiki would mostly get abandoned after a while
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2018-08-06 11:42:05 jamesmunns IMO the books cover all "doesn't change very often, and helps all developers" content
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2018-08-06 11:42:16 lkurusa the scope of "embedded" is too wide
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2018-08-06 11:42:35 lkurusa there'd be a few great articles, and a lot of bad articles
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2018-08-06 11:43:02 jamesmunns I was hoping to capture some of the less-universal knowledge
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2018-08-06 11:43:23 jamesmunns for example, how to play nice with STM32 clocking when using X Y or Z
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2018-08-06 11:43:43 jamesmunns that wouldn't go in the book, but could be valuable for multiple developers
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2018-08-06 11:43:51 prof Yeah, but typically people will ask for help in the forums.
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2018-08-06 11:43:51 jamesmunns But yeah, curation is hard.
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2018-08-06 11:43:54 ~japaric jamesmunns: I'm a bit concerned about the wiki as well. Good content needs curation and the wiki will in addition need moderation; I'm not sure how good GH wiki tooling in those two aspects. Also GH wiki strike me as something with very low visibility; I never check a GH repo's wiki
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2018-08-06 11:44:18 ~japaric but maybe that's just me :-)
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2018-08-06 11:44:23 jamesmunns Okay, not married to the idea, just wanted to share what I had in mind :)
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2018-08-06 11:44:30 prof @japaric fully agree.
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2018-08-06 11:44:38 lkurusa to be frank, i didn't even realize we wanted to use GH wiki, i always thought it was mediawiki or something similar
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2018-08-06 11:44:45 jamesmunns Totally happy to drop. We can always revisit at a later date.
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2018-08-06 11:44:51 prof If needed we can also put up a cookbook.
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2018-08-06 11:45:10 jamesmunns lkurusa: Github wiki was my personal suggestion, to avoid hosting as much of our own stuff as possible
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2018-08-06 11:45:23 jamesmunns Due to cost, people willing to maintain it long term, etc.
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2018-08-06 11:45:56 jamesmunns If we can establish a budget and ops team, I would probably lean towards something else as well.
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2018-08-06 11:46:22 ~japaric re: FAQ, which I mentioned in the RFC thread. I think we could put in the forum as a pinned, locked topic and have content added to it via PRs to a copy hosted in some repo
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2018-08-06 11:47:02 prof @japaric: +1
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2018-08-06 11:47:34 korken89 japaric: +1
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2018-08-06 11:47:54 ~japaric or we could have the FAQ as its own thing but I think having it on the forum makes it easier for people to run into it when searching for answers via the forum search bar
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2018-08-06 11:48:09 lkurusa +1
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2018-08-06 11:48:19 cr1901 +1
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2018-08-06 11:48:26 jamesmunns Does discourse play nice with google indexing?
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2018-08-06 11:48:40 ~japaric jamesmunns: no idea
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2018-08-06 11:48:43 jamesmunns (not everyone who has a problem will be a forum user on day one)
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2018-08-06 11:49:04 jamesmunns I don't remember seeing too many searches ending up on a discourse forum, but that might just be a bad observation
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2018-08-06 11:49:46 prof If there's an interesting topic we could also turn it into a blog article.
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2018-08-06 11:49:56 jamesmunns (googling seems to show no problem, probably over paranoid :) )
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2018-08-06 11:50:01 ~japaric "photon serial how" first hit is their discourse forum (using google; which is probably biased on my old search queries)
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2018-08-06 11:50:09 ~japaric jamesmunns: ^
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2018-08-06 11:50:18 jamesmunns Just interested in making sure we have good discoverability :)
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2018-08-06 11:50:43 jamesmunns Most of that probably comes from making the forum well used, and linked to by other stuff (so it shows up higher on google results)
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2018-08-06 11:51:30 jamesmunns japaric: :+1:
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2018-08-06 11:51:44 ~japaric less than 10 mins left; could we summarize what seem to have agreement on in the etherpad?
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2018-08-06 11:51:46 jamesmunns yep, same result from my end
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2018-08-06 11:52:05 jamesmunns japaric: on it
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2018-08-06 11:52:10 ~japaric jamesmunns: thanks
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2018-08-06 11:52:42 ~japaric other thoughts: +1 on not having comments on blog posts
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2018-08-06 11:52:51 eddyb awygle: I don't remember anything sadly
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2018-08-06 11:53:55 prof So -1 to blog commenting? ;)
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2018-08-06 11:54:10 prof -1 from me as well.
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2018-08-06 11:54:22 jamesmunns Yeah, if we have a forum or somewhere else for discussion, no need for comments, another thing to moderate
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2018-08-06 11:54:30 cr1901 -1 from me too (I disagree w/ blog comments on principle)
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2018-08-06 11:54:30 prof That.
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2018-08-06 11:54:54 korken89 japaric: Agree
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2018-08-06 11:55:11 cr1901 You want to discuss the article, link to it from your preferred "social network"
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2018-08-06 11:55:33 ~japaric -1 on having a subreddit; have, recently, heard negative comments about people behavior on r/rust due to seemingly lack of moderation tools (I don't usually read reddit comments; I just check the links)
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2018-08-06 11:55:43 ~japaric -2 on using reddit as a forum :-)
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2018-08-06 11:55:51 prof :-D
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2018-08-06 11:56:22 jamesmunns Any 2nd preference if we can't get a hosted discourse for free?
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2018-08-06 11:56:28 ~japaric +1 on using discourse for the forums because of the reasons I mentioned before
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2018-08-06 11:56:48 * japaric can't think of any other forum solutions
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2018-08-06 11:57:10 jamesmunns Hosted is 99$/mo for managed, or $5-$10/mo for self-hosted on a VPS, plus then we need someone/multiple people to handle ops
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2018-08-06 11:57:18 lkurusa we can come back to that question later
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2018-08-06 11:57:34 jamesmunns Leave comments on the issue, please :)
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2018-08-06 11:57:36 prof Let's check if we can discourse for free first before checking alternatives.
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2018-08-06 11:57:48 lkurusa ^
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2018-08-06 11:58:08 jamesmunns japaric: could you please reach out to whoever offered that from the Rust or Discourse side?
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2018-08-06 11:58:09 ~japaric prof: I'll ask the Rust team about discourse
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2018-08-06 11:58:14 jamesmunns :+1:
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2018-08-06 11:59:49 ~japaric and we are out of time
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2018-08-06 12:00:04 ~japaric I wanted to discuss RC1 issues but no time left
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2018-08-06 12:00:22 ~japaric I'll cc teams on GH on every issue I have assigned to the RC1
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2018-08-06 12:00:41 prof (y)
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2018-08-06 12:00:53 ~japaric once we have everything under the rust-embedded org it'll be easier to see all the RC1 issues at once
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2018-08-06 12:01:06 ~japaric we can discuss how to tackle those issues next week
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2018-08-06 12:01:45 korken89 Thanks all!
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2018-08-06 12:01:57 jamesmunns Have a good week!
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2018-08-06 12:01:59 lkurusa thank you all, have a great week!
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2018-08-06 12:02:02 ~japaric thanks all for attending; see you next week
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2018-08-06 12:02:03 ~japaric o/

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